submissive peeing

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tntmom
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submissive peeing

Post by tntmom »

We just adopted our third dog from ABR.

We brought Miss Dew home a couple of weeks ago. For the most part she is doing great.

She had absolutely NO manners at first but is learning very quickly.

She is already sitting on command and has curbed her counter surfing.

The problem we have is that she is submissive peeing to my husband. He has not disciplined her beyond a stern no and a squirt with the squirt bottle.
Which we both have done. He is giving her lots of positive attention which she is loving. She is not afraid of him. She just pees and rolls on her back when ever he greets her, or calls her to him. She does not do this with me.

I realize that it means she probably had a bad experience with a man in the past.

When she turns on her back he tells her to get up. He has never scolded for the peeing.

Thanks for the advice.

Tammy

Barb Wright
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Post by Barb Wright »

Tammy: Just quickly here...submissive urination is usually something that dogs outgrow as they mature and/or become comfortable and secure with their people and their place in the home. I'll get some good information lined out for you tomorrow, plus I am sure some others on the board here will chime in with good input...in the meantime, your husband, at this point in time, should pretty much ignore the dog, speak only in a soft voice, let her come to him, DO NOT DISCIPLINE her for the time being....and if he is wanting to greet or pet her, if she goes "submissive" he should turn away from her and ignore her.

Whatever her reason for being insecure with him, she will overcome it eventually. It is most often a result of insecurity (for whatever reason) and it should be totally ignored. Just clean up the puddle with no comment...she DOES NOT KNOW SHE IS DOING IT :!: It is an instinctive behavior as ingrained as breathing. It passes as confidence is acquired.

You might do a quick "search" into our archives...I'm pretty sure we have covered this on our new message board here in the past. If not, we do have quite a bit of help, hints and tips for you. Most of us have had to deal with this at one time or another :wink:

Hope this helps for now...more tomorrow :)
RIP Sweet Cassie 4/98 - 3/13

Dave
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Post by Dave »

Speaking as a man who has had a bunch of female foster dogs and three of my own I would have your husband obedience train her . Have him work with her daily and when he approaches her don't bend over her to speak to her . I squat with my back staight and lower myself to their level and speak in a soft happy voice . Bending over them intimidates them and makes them submit more . The obedience training will increase her confidence with him and she will eventually decide she doesn't have to submit to the point of submissive peeing and rolling over . At least with females that roll over you don't get the old faithful geyser spray the boys give you :roll: :lol: I've had a few very scared submissive boys that gave me a shower :lol: Dave

Lisa
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Post by Lisa »

Okay, I must just attract dogs with problems! I haven't been in dogs that long, but here's another problem I've dealt with! :lol:

Yup, my folks' dog, Millie, is a submissive urinater. She used to pee upon greeting me, Britty, and still does when she meets my fosters! With Millie, we finally figured out that it was a combination of sheer joy and submissiveness. She of course didn't know what she was doing, so we just pretty much ignored the behavior, worked on managing it, and building her confidence. She is 2 (I think) now, and has pretty much outgrown this, but still does it occasionally when meeting one of my new fosters.

For management, I just made sure to always greet Millie calmly and on tile or outside (easy clean-up). I would always bend down to her level, give her a treat, scratch her chest and walk away. If she pee'd fine, I cleaned it up. If not, great, just move on. When Millie would greet Britty, I just made sure Britty was outside to start, put Millie outside with her, and let them figure it out.

For confidence building, my folks took Millie to obedience classes. Then, whenever I'd go visit, I'd teach her a new trick. Got to the point where Millie wanted to learn the new trick and get treats and she was more interested in that than being submissive.
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Britty- RIP March 27, 2014
Buster-CGC, OA, OF, NAJ, APK, APJ, APG, APR, PD

Barb Wright
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Post by Barb Wright »

Well, I had to go into our "old" ABR archives but found the following which I think was responding to a person with a puppy, but it applies to adults with SU as well:

"Speaking specifically to submissive urination, one of the most important things to understand about submissive urination is that is a very common, normal behavior in dogdom, especially with puppies that are very young and learning to adapt to "superior" beings that control them. THE MOST IMPORTANT THING to keep in mind is that *they do not know that they are doing it*....it is the result of pure unadulterated instinct and reflex. It has no connection to potty training whatsoever. Therefore, it is essential that you do not react to it either vocally, facially, or physically in a negative manner....they are very tuned into the vibes that you send out and anger, irritation, and impatience radiate right to them, and just increase their feeling of insecurity and lack of confidence, plus, they will not understand what they did that caused you to suddenly react badly toward them. SU is not something you can control with any form of discipline. You MUST just accept it, contain your displeasure, control your reaction, clean it up and move on. As the dog matures, learns the ropes of living with humans, other dogs, all the complications of life, etc. as long as they are worked with patiently, compassionately, justly and consistently, they will become increasingly more confident and secure, learn what is expected of them ( via training, socialization, etc.) and , voila, the unpleasant (to us) behavior will begin to diminish and then end."

"You can greatly control this SU reaction by warning people in advance to speak calmly when greeting the puppy, or even better, to just ignore the puppy. This will eliminate the condition that elicits the SU response. In your case men, especially other than your immediate family, should attempt absolutely NO INTERACTION with the dog at all, ignore it, and when the first excitement of meeting is over, let the puppy decide if they want to come close. All sensitive dogs have a "space" around them that is their comfort zone. Upon entering inside that zone they begin to display characteristics that let you (or other dogs as the case may be) know that now the dynamic is changing and along with that the accepted protocols also change. With your immediate family do as CJ suggested, try for quiet, calm interaction letting the puppy set the separation area to what is comfortable for them. Just being still, offering treats or familiar toys, waiting patiently, over time normal curiosity will usually get a puppy moving ever closer, thus learning to widen its' comfort zone. With strangers or visitors, if you can plan ahead of time, have some nifty treats for strangers to just toss to the puppy...this will also eventually help defuse the tenseness the puppy may be feeling. But, ignoring usually works the best in the beginning."

"Even the youngest puppies very rapidly become tuned into the inflections in our voices and our body language. Though the SU behavior is disconcerting to we humans, I always feel it is also a very positive and definitive sign that you have a dog that, once it matures, gains confidence in itself and understands its' surroundings, will be a very receptive dog to training done in a positive manner, will learn to know what you expect just by your demeanor.....in essence, "read you like a book". And in the case of Brittanys, they learn to read us and manipulate us beautifully !!! :-) So, do not be discouraged....though overcoming this one facet of your dogs' temperament and personality will take time, patience, understanding, and consistent support, it will end eventually 8) "

"One other thing I think we always need to keep in mind....dogs do not look upon bodily function results (urine/feces) even remotely like humans do. In the case of SU, it is a message to the other dog that the excretor respects/submits/does not challenge the superior dog...a very important message in dog-dog protocols. When it happens in the dog-human context it still means pretty much the same thing, though the reasons behind it are often unknown, misunderstood and/or remain a mystery to we humans. Disconcerting though it may be right now it can be overcome in time."

"Our posture says a lot to dogs, and in the case of a timid or insecure dog/puppy one very good calming signal to use when they approach, or you approach them as the case may be, turning sideways is posture they recognize as non-threatening. Do not make direct eye contact, pick a spot below the level of the head to watch, say the chest or shoulder....you will want to know what they are doing physically, but do not look directly into the eyes. Dogs talk "volumes" to each other with their eyes, and they will try to do the same with us. But, the communication breaks down because WE do not understand what they are saying with their eyes!! A direct stare is threatening to a less than confident dog, one inexperienced in dealing with humans, or one traumatized in some previous contact with humans. And it is a challenge to an aggressive or poorly socialized dog.
Also, best to keep your hands at your side or laying flat on your thigh, do not bend over and reach out to touch, especially toward the top of the head or the top of the body down to the shoulders. This is aggressive posturing in dogdom and scary to a timid or insecure dog, a faux pas in dogdom manners. Our happy, confident dogs learn to ignore this and accept it as our way of being friendly, poor manners and clumsy as it may be....but a puppy is still operating on dog instincts entirely and being leaned over is threatening. If the dog will accept you reaching out to them, slowly aim for the chest or lower shoulder for a light touch or pat.
To get down to puppy level, kneel down rather than bending over and lay a hand on your thigh to let the puppy advance in its' own time to sniff. They need to sniff and smell you, this is of huge importance in dog-dog and dog-human interaction. Dogs gain a tremendous amount of information from what they smell. (I would not kneel down to greet a strange adult dog, but rather remain erect, turn sideways, keep your hands to your sides and wait. Again, do not make eye contact unless you are prepared to back up a challenge. But do keep an eye on the rest of their body language so you are aware of their intentions.)"

"There are several excellent books available that help us learn to read and understand dog "language". One really good one that is quite brief and pointed deals specifically with dogs that are fearful, for whatever reason. It is "The Cautious Canine" by Patricia McConnell. Another is "On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals" by Turid Rugaas. "The ABC's of Dog Language" by Anders Hallgren is another very educational adventure into understanding what our dogs are telling us. Trust me, you will not go wrong investing in these books!!! They will help a great deal in learning to express yourself to your dog in a more meaningful way, and help you understand what your dog may be trying to communicate to you."

This is a compilation of several posts to our old message board...I hope it is helpful to you.
RIP Sweet Cassie 4/98 - 3/13

tntmom
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Location: orlando florida

Post by tntmom »

Thanks so much for the advice!!

We are doing obedience training with her, and she is learning quite quickly. As I said, she already sits, and is about 75% good with come. Stay is still a while off, as she is just TOOOO excited to be still for any length of time.

We have not ever scolded or disciplined for the SU. It just doesn't make sense to scold a dog already in the ultimate submissive posture. It is logical that would just make it worse.

The advice about not bending over her might be the ticket. My husband is a tall guy, and usually bends down when greeting the dogs (who usually get greetings before I do :lol: ).

Dew is not at all afraid of Gary, and goes to him easily, and follows him alot. She often crawls in his lap (the rare moments when Tessa is not already there).

Dew is around 10 mo. So she is still very much a puppy. Hopefully maturity and Gary changing his greeting posture will do the trick.

And yes I am ever so greatful we have tile floors!!!!!

Thanks again for the advice.

Tammy

tntmom
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Post by tntmom »

I just re-read my first post and realized that I made it sound like he told her no and squirted her for the SU, that is not the case, the only thing he has squirted her for is counter surfing. He has NEVER scolded her for the SU.

Tammy

Dave
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Post by Dave »

Another thing I do with a submissive dog is when I'm watching TV I sit on the floor in front of my couch and let the dog approach me . I quietly talk to them and if they come to me I'll wait till they nudge me for attention , which they normally do . I had a male named Hunter that failed his first adoption because of a bad experience with the male of his house . It only took me a few days to have him climbing in my lap for a cuddle and he was adopted by a guy for his constant companion and is living happily ever after . 8) Dave

juliette
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Post by juliette »

It sounds like you've gotten some great advice here! My first Britt was severely abused by her former owner, and she'd submissively urinate if a man even LOOKED at her. (The owner gave her up because he said he just couldn't housebreak her, no matter how hard he tried :roll: )

Anyway, after two years of patient, loving, care and training, she now trusts my husband so much that she will go to him, sit up, and hold her front paws up like a kid to be picked up and carried! He can carry her like this for as long as he wants - sometimes she'll even fall asleep on his shoulder! Anyway, my point is, just hang in there - most of them do eventually learn that in their forever home, dads don't hurt.

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kat
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Post by kat »

That picture is priceless!! What a great story, I love the happy ending ones.
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My mom is a Kat - How cool is that?

Dave
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Post by Dave »

You don't think that dog likes him do you :?: :lol: That picture is worth a 1000 words :P Dave

Lisa
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Post by Lisa »

OMG!!! That picture is priceless! :lol:
Image Image RIP Madi
Charm-future agility champ
Britty- RIP March 27, 2014
Buster-CGC, OA, OF, NAJ, APK, APJ, APG, APR, PD

Barb Wright
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Post by Barb Wright »

The story behind that wonderful picture is what really makes my heart go pitty-pat :)
RIP Sweet Cassie 4/98 - 3/13

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